Heart Play Side One

JOHN: The theme is the dialog between a man and a woman, which is what it is and this album is part 1 of at least 2. That's for sure. And we were originally calling it an Ear Play.

YOKO: Heartplay.

JOHN: Yeah, it went to Heartplay but still contains the word "ear", meaning apart from the, we hope, popular kind of music on it which we like. There's also a theme running through it, and it's also a story. It's a story with not much description, just dialogue. You know those kind of movies? [laughs] Or a radio play, you know, they can't afford to have too much description and long panning shots along the shore and down to the little house on the beach. You just go, on the radio you just hear "shh, shh, shh, shh" and thеy start talking. We've done 22 songs, basic tracks. So thеn it was like having a movie, a lot of movie films or like the way they film two movies and it was a matter of which scene started where and which scene works with the next one. There's been a lot of shuffling around, as you can imagine.

JOHN: I was used to working with other people, but not with women you know.

YOKO: But not with a woman who was a wife as well. Totally different scene, and this time around for some reason, we sort of regained our respect for each other suddenly and maybe through this sort of...

JOHN: I also think this album is just like it's... it's just like the beginning. I think we've got some interesting spaces to go to because we worked together before in many different ways, but still I always had that sort of vague attitude that I was... I was the One. "I know all about this business and I know what a backbeat is," right? Well, now I know that she knows all about this business and she knows what a backbeat is and et cetera [Yoko laughing in background] and I think this is like the first piece of work we've really done together, and for my part, I just know I will even be more wholeheartedly emerged in working with her in the future, because of the experience of doing this album.

You see, in the early days when we were recording together I was having great fun because she was so 'freeform' but when the engineers would talk, Yoko would say, because she's trained musically and I'm not going to go through her list of qualifications 'cause it sounds like I'm promoting her, I don't have to but she knows, she's trained as a musician. Since birth! So when she would say to an engineer in 1968, even though it was a freeform jam, "I'd like a little more treble, a little more bass." or "there's too much of that whatever you're putting on that." they'd say: “What did you say, John?" Now, women are conscious of that now and it's talked about a lot but those days, I didn't even notice it myself and she'd say: "Didn't you notice that when I talk to them, they answer you as if I haven't spoken!" Now I know what she's talking about, especially it's happened to me in Japan, too. Because in Japan, even though I'm well known there, she's the queen of Japan, you know? When they talk in Japan and I say, you know: "A cup of tea, please," in Japanese. They say: "He wants a cup of tea?" to her in Japanese. [All laugh] and so I really know what she's talking about now, but she'd been getting it a long time from engineers and anybody around us. So I really understand it now, not only as a feminist issue, but as a being the 'Other', you know? and there's no more of the 'Other' now.

YOKO: When two get it together there is nothing you can't do. So it's as a power it is very strong. But of course John has a different - I mean he can't help it, with his different history from mine - he's a man and all that, so, he has different dreams, and I have a different dream too. When it happens it's really powerful. But sometimes, two people might be praying but at the same time secretly thinking about something else or what ever, and then it doesn't happen. So, that's sort of unified wishing or praying you know is something that doesn't happen that simply.

JOHN: Well, that shows in the album too because what's happening is instead of, the consciousness is to "let's see what future, or what we," to use a term prayer, "what we shall pray for together. Let's make it stronger by picturing the same image, projecting the same image." And that is the secret.

YOKO: In the Fantasy, of course, in the fantasy world, and you think about fantasy as separate from reality, but fantasy is almost like the reality which is to come, you know. So, in that fantasy world, of course, somebody like George Orwell would have created in 1984. Which is the general trend of the male species, I think, up to now.

JOHN: Hup, Hup. He coughs. [Laughter] Yeah. I agree with that and that's what she told me since we met.

DAVID: Interesting.

JOHN: That's why. I said it badly this afternoon.

YOKO: But you know like H.G. Wells, you know, and all that people saying "Incredible what they said happened." Of course, it's not prophecy, it's like a form of prayer. And you know.

JOHN: What do they call it, "wish fulfilment?"

DAVID: Right.

JOHN: The other day there was another quote, remember I showed it to you? The guy had predicted which World War, the Third World War and where it would happen, and they're saying "Oh, look, it's happening just like he said." And our game, or whatever it is, has always been, when they say, "what is John and Yoko doing? Doing Bed-ins?” We used to say well we want to do a commercial for peace on the front pages of the papers instead of a commercial for war. And the reporters go "Uh huh. Yea. Sure." But it didn't matter what the reporters said because our commercial went out irrespective. I mean, they were saying funny things about us but that wasn't the point the commercial went out anyway.

It was more important to face ourselves and face that reality. Then to continue a life of rock and roll showbiz and either go up and down with the winds of either your own performance or the public's opinion of you.

YOKO: Because you can become a stereotype of yourself [Laughs]. And that’s one thing we didn’t want to be also in a way and a lot of other stuff.

JOHN: And also, I must add, I found myself in a position where, for whatever reason, I always considered my self an artist, or musician, or whatever you want to call it, poet, or, that type of person and the so-called "pain of the artist" was always paid for by the freedom of the artist and the idea of being a rock and roll musician sort of suited my talents and mentality. And the freedom was great. But then I found I wasn't free. I'd got boxed in. It wasn't just because of a contract. But the contract was a physical manifestation of being in prison. And that I might as well have gone to a 9 to 5 job, just carry on the way I was carrying on. I just got myself boxed in. And there's two ways to go. You either go, what I term “going to Vegas", you know, and singing any great hits, if you're lucky, or going to hell, dying. Actually, literally dying.

YOKO: When I was in the art world the things that I really despised about male artists was that it was like a setup. Like they would get one tiny idea, you know like alright "I'm an artist who draws circle", then he sticks to that and that becomes his label. He gets a gallery who would promote that and that's his life. And next year he'll do triangles or something. It's such a poverty of ideas, and it doesn't reflect his life at all and continue doing that for maybe ten years or something, people start realize you are someone who continued ten years. Then you might get prize or something [laughs] and it such a ridiculous sort of routine.

JOHN: When you get the big prize is when you get cancer and you've been drawing circles and triangles for 20 years.

YOKO: And then die, right.

JOHN: The biggest is one when you die. They give you pretty a big one for dying in public. Ok. Those are the things we are not interested in doing. That's why we ended up doing things like Bed-ins and she ended up doing things like pop music, whereas she'd come from this avant-garde field, and I'd come from the straight rock field. Well the first attempt at our being together and producing things together was like "Two Virgins" albums and the events we did whether they were Bed-ins or posters, or whatever the events or films and things we did then, which is what we crossed over into each other's fields. Like people do from country to pop. We did it from avant-garde, leftfield from rock and roll leftfield. We tried to find a ground that was interesting to both of us and we both got excited and stimulated by each other's experiences. We wanted to know what could we do together because we want to be together. We want to work together. We don't want to just be together on weekends. We want to be together and live and work together. So the first attempts were the Bed-ins, and because that was, that was the period too. "What can we do together." We did that together. We attempted a few times to make music together but that was a long time ago and people still had this idea "The Beatles" were some kind of sacred thing that shouldn't step outside of its circle and it was hard for us work together then. We think that either people have forgotten or they have grown up by now and it’s we'll make a second foray into that place where she and I are together and not some wondrous mystic prince from the rock and roll world dabbling with this strange oriental woman.

The other question people are going to ask is: "Why do it with Yoko?" Or "Why Yoko do it with me?" Which will be a question, maybe, in a year or two [chuckles] But let's say they ask: "Why do it together?" Because together is the only way that it is fun!

YOKO: We are just a normal couple. Normal, What is normal? We are just another couple. The things that John are saying are things that I am saying. I think that all men and woman are feeling but the only difference is that we're saying them... So there is nothing new in the album in that sense. Everything that's said is an age old feeling that we had. But the only difference is that we are not afraid of those feelings and we didn’t kill the feelings.

JOHN: Walking away is much harder than carrying on. Because I know, because I've done both. I hadn't stopped since '62, or 3 till '73. On demand, on schedule continuously. It was very hard because one always had that thing "Well one 'ought to, I'm supposed to, shouldn't I be going." You know like, quotes, "to the office." Or producing something because therefore I don't exist if my name isn't in the papers, or if I don't have a record out or in the charts, or whatever or not is seen at the right... whatever the game is. It must be like the guys at 65 where somebody comes and goes [knocks three times] "Your life's over. Time for golf." It's self-imposed, yes. But still the feeling was still there. Suddenly there's this whole big space that seems to be un-fillable. And of course, naturally it got filled because that's the law of the universe, leave a space and something will fill it and it was filled by a fulfilling experience, to put it in a little cute phrase.

YOKO: When John and I go out they will say to John, "What are you doing now?" but they never ask me because women are not supposed to be doing anything [laughs].

JOHN: Well, I would say "I'm baking bread." and they'd say "Ha, ha. What are you really doing?" I'd say "Well, I'm looking after the baby." "No, no, but what else do you do?" I'd say "Are you kidding?" There were no secret projects in the basement because bread and babies, as every housewife everywhere knows, is a full time job and there ain't no space.

And I got into cooking a little and I used to say to Yoko after I made these loaves I felt I conquered something. That bit about if there wasn't a mommy or daddy to feed me I'd have to open a can of tuna or something. So I broke through that barrier and I watched the bread being eaten and I thought "Well Jesus! I don't get a gold record, a knighthood or nothing!?" You know. I recalled all the jokes and clichés about women and about them saying that the rewards of, and they had such a tremendous responsibility to see that the baby has the right amount of food and not overeat, and gets the right amount of sleep. Because ain't nobody else going to do it for him. No nanny, if you can afford nannies. Maybe a grandmother in the old days when the family was more extended than nuclear. But if I, as the housemother for that period, had not attended to when he slept and when he didn't and still I get Toshi to call from the studio to make sure that's he's getting in the bath by 7:30 because his nanny is beautiful and loving but she just forgets what time it is and he gets extended and bags under his eyes, and he gets tired, and he gets exposed to colds and flu. And I can't switch off from here and it's a tremendous responsibility, and now I understand the frustration of those women because there is no knighthood. There is no gold clock.

There is a great satisfaction. I took a polaroid photograph of my first loaf. I [Yoko laughs] I was overjoyed. I was that excited by it. I couldn't believe it. It was like an album coming out the oven. The instantness of it was great. And when they first ate a meal of mine, I was thrilled and then when I would, I ended up cooking for the staff, I was so in to it [Yoko laughs], so thrilled with it. That they would all be, there were about 8 seats, people in the corner, and every day I was cooking lunch for the staff, drivers, office boys, anybody who was working with us. "Come on up." I love it. Then it was beginning to wear me out. I thought "What's this? Screw this for a laugh!" [Yoko laugh] I'd make two loaves on Friday. They'd be gone by Saturday afternoon. The thrill was wearing off. It became the routine again. So the joy is still there when I see Sean. He didn't come out my belly, but my God, I made his bones because I've attended to every meal, and how he sleeps, and the fact that he swims like a fish is because I took him to the Y, I took him in the ocean. I'm so proud of all those, he is my biggest pride. You see? But you're talking to a guy who was not interested in children at all before Sean.

I don’t any hankering to be looked upon as a sex object, male rock and roll singer. I enjoy to look good and I like to be attractive and I enjoy the macho part of rock but I don't have any need to be the idol, and have people think that I just snap my fingers and teenyboppers come crawling in my bed, and that's the way life is, because it ain't like that and I don't want it to be like that. That's for maybe for younger guys who are just starting in the business and saying, "Oh, good, golden groupies" [Yoko laughs], and that's how it is. I got over that a long, long, time ago. I'm interested in ourselves, the family and making some music and trying to make something that we are proud of and that other people, then other people can make a choice of whether they want it or don't want it, or what to make of it, and what does it mean and we'll have all the fun of that. I'm not interested in being a sex symbol, or coming on as some big raunchy guy that drops one woman, picks up another the whole bit. I’m not interested in that. I'm not interested in even projecting that. I'd like it to be known that yes, she kicked me out [Yoko laughs] and it took a long time to get back in. And yes, I looked after the baby, and I made the bread, and I was a house husband. Let them understand that I'm proud of it. It was an enlightening experience for me because it was a complete reversal of my whole upbringing. It's the wave of the future, you know, and I'm glad to be in on the forefront of that too.

No the thing of feeling that one did not... was not justified in being alive unless one was fulfilling other people's dreams whether they were contractual dreams or dreams about the "public" fulfilling their dreams or fulfilling my own dreams and illusions about what I thought I was supposed to be, which in retrospect turned out to be not what I am - that's what I was saying about I've lost the initial freedom of the artist by becoming enslaved to the image of the artist of what the artist is supposed to do and a lot of artists kill themselves because of it, you know, whether it be through drink, like a Dylan Thomas or through insanity, like another artist, like a Van Gough, or anybody you know or VD and craziness like Gaughan, you know? Painting a picture for his child which he never spent any time with, you know, trying to create a masterpiece to give to the child, but meanwhile the child dies and anyway, he gets VD and the masterpiece burns down. It's burnt to the ground and even had it survived, better he should have stayed with the kid, that was the conclusion I came to.

DAVID: Why were you able to see that and most people don't. Most people would've gone on and did the next album and...

JOHN: Most people don't live with Yoko Ono. That's the main difference. Or don't have a companion who will tell you the truth and refuse to live with a bullshit artist, which I am pretty damn good at, you know, bullshitting myself and everybody 'round, and she maybe we do it for each other. But I can, that's my answer.

Here we are. I'm going to be 40. Sean's going to be 5. Isn't it great. We survived. He survived his 5 years. I am going to be 40 and life begins at 40, so they promise [David laughs]. Oh, I believe it too. Because I feel fine. I'm like excited. It's like 21. You know, hitting 21. It's like "Wow! What's going to happen?" It suddenly all came through me like that in the form of song. Although it must have been in my mind somewhere or other, all these...

YOKO: So the songs are really inspired songs. You know, I mean...

JOHN: There isn't one where I had to sit down and sort of try to make a dovetail joint and I can't imagine how people are going to take it, actually. I have a hopeful wish, prayer, fulfilment that they will take it in the spirit that it is given, which is with love and a lot of sweat, and life's experience of two people.